Resources identifying Scripture passages related to the role of government and faith.

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Scout9

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Feb 13, 2021
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There seems to be a lot of confusion about the role of God in government; separation of church and state, politics and religion, etc. There will probably always be disagreements, dissensions, arguments and anger. What I've learned is that when there are multiple sources of truth, there will always be varying opinions. I am sure I will get a lot of slack from people about even posting this on the WarRoom, yet I feel led by the Spirit to provide passages from Scripture about how God sees the role of government in the world He created. Feel free to respond however you want, but as for me; I choose Scripture and God as my source of truth. He is the One to whom I owe my allegiance and obedience first.

biblereasons.com/government

bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Government
 

FreedomEJ

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There seems to be a lot of confusion about the role of God in government; separation of church and state, politics and religion, etc. There will probably always be disagreements, dissensions, arguments and anger. What I've learned is that when there are multiple sources of truth, there will always be varying opinions. I am sure I will get a lot of slack from people about even posting this on the WarRoom, yet I feel led by the Spirit to provide passages from Scripture about how God sees the role of government in the world He created. Feel free to respond however you want, but as for me; I choose Scripture and God as my source of truth. He is the One to whom I owe my allegiance and obedience first.

biblereasons.com/government

bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Government
I totally agree with you; God and scripture is our source of truth. The Bible has much to say about government. These verses from the link you posted are evidence:

Psalm 135:6 “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in Heaven and in Earth, in the seas and in all the deeps.”

Psalm 22:28 “For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.”

Proverbs 21:1 “The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.”

Daniel 2:21 “He changes the times and the years. He takes kings away, and puts kings in power. He gives wisdom to wise men and much learning to men of understanding.”

Of course, there are those here who will mock God's role in government. Rest assured, they will be disciplined by Him in due time.

Gal 6:7: Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
 

Scout9

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Feb 13, 2021
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You have to do much better than this.
Just out of curiosity: what do you think would be my purpose for doing "much better than this"? What do you think I would be trying to prove by doing better than Scripture? What is your purpose for stating I have to do better than "this", i.e. God whom inspired others to write down How He wants our world to be governed and operate according to His plan?

I don't know why you would think/assume that I have anything better than Scripture to support Scripture and How God views government and faith. Isaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us: And the government will rest on his shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

I for one, want that type of government, whose leader is known by those names and characteristics. I am curious as to why you don't seem to think that is the best type of government to have? (my keys are stuck on bold; so don't read into anything with the bold print.)


Feel free to post whatever you want to support your position: "This is definitely not American OR Christian." related to my statement "There are plenty of Scripture passages in which faith and government are part of how Yehovah wants His people to govern."

Thanks and have a good day.
 
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FreedomEJ

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Just out of curiosity: what do you think would be my purpose for doing "much better than this"? What do you think I would be trying to prove by doing better than Scripture? What is your purpose for stating I have to do better than "this", i.e. God whom inspired others to write down How He wants our world to be governed and operate according to His plan?

I don't know why you would think/assume that I have anything better than Scripture to support Scripture and How God views government and faith. Isaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us: And the government will rest on his shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

I for one, want that type of government. I am curious as to why you don't seem to think that is the best type of government to have? (my keys are stuck on bold; so don't read into anything with the bold print.)


Feel free to post whatever you want to support your position: "This is definitely not American OR Christian." related to my statement "There are plenty of Scripture passages in which faith and government are part of how Yehovah wants His people to govern."
I also want that type of government. God-fearing Christians see the wisdom in what scripture teaches. Unfortunately, unbelieving mockers don't. Rest assured, they will be shown.
 
L

Lord Help America

Guest
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the role of God in government; separation of church and state, politics and religion, etc. There will probably always be disagreements, dissensions, arguments and anger. What I've learned is that when there are multiple sources of truth, there will always be varying opinions. I am sure I will get a lot of slack from people about even posting this on the WarRoom, yet I feel led by the Spirit to provide passages from Scripture about how God sees the role of government in the world He created. Feel free to respond however you want, but as for me; I choose Scripture and God as my source of truth. He is the One to whom I owe my allegiance and obedience first.

biblereasons.com/government

bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Government
So, say I. God established the government as a tentative guardian over the people.
 

Magafront

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Sep 20, 2021
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magafront.wordpress.com
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L

Lord Help America

Guest
Just out of curiosity: what do you think would be my purpose for doing "much better than this"? What do you think I would be trying to prove by doing better than Scripture? What is your purpose for stating I have to do better than "this", i.e. God whom inspired others to write down How He wants our world to be governed and operate according to His plan?

I don't know why you would think/assume that I have anything better than Scripture to support Scripture and How God views government and faith. Isaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us: And the government will rest on his shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

I for one, want that type of government, whose leader is known by those names and characteristics. I am curious as to why you don't seem to think that is the best type of government to have? (my keys are stuck on bold; so don't read into anything with the bold print.)


Feel free to post whatever you want to support your position: "This is definitely not American OR Christian." related to my statement "There are plenty of Scripture passages in which faith and government are part of how Yehovah wants His people to govern."

Thanks and have a good day.
We will see a perfect government and King when Jesus, the Christ, rules on this earth for a thousand years, known as the Millennium.
 
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countermoon

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Until then, we will have to live in an imperfect world with imperfect government and imperfect people.

You see how your words don't help. They don't solve anything. They don't address what it's like to live in the world right now, with our eyes and ears open.
 

Scout9

Senior Member
Feb 13, 2021
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You have to do much better than this.
Very kindly and Gently written; no Countermoon, you do. If you will not provide resources to support your position; "This is definitely not American OR Christian."; then the corrective response is to provide an apology specifically to me, or a retraction.

That is the Republic and the America I know and live in. It is a unity of common respect and relationship building among its citizens so that we can all do our part for Our Country AND Our God, despite our individual differences and beliefs. You cannot simply continue to make false claims and then run away from those, leaving a wake of "perceived hurt" after your attacks.

I wrote a long time ago, it is hard to offend me. But for others, as I've seen the interactions on the forum- especially Christians; you have been hostile and seemingly intending to hurt others. I have a hard time reading the material and instead of ignoring it; or by-passing it; I am using my skill set to help you find a common ground to assist in the differences so that we can still fight for the common cause of saving what's left of our country. WE (the faith-filled, Bible believing Christians, children of Yahweh) are not your enemy, but it does seem as if you want to make it that way. Please consider what your objective is and behave accordingly. I will continue to choose life and light. What you choose will determine my future responses to you. With all sincerity, have a blessed day, Countermoon.
 

countermoon

Senior Member
Feb 17, 2021
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American midwest
This still bothers you?

Be honest. You don't want America. You don't like America with its messy freedom and democracy. What you want is theocracy. What you want is Islam. Iran or Iraq. Islam makes no distinction between church and state. That's your kind of thing.

Have a nice day!:) I will say a little prayer against you!:)
 

countermoon

Senior Member
Feb 17, 2021
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"you have been hostile and seemingly intending to hurt others"

You want it to be nice. It isn't nice. I stood up to frauds and managed to get rid of some of them. I'm certainly not going to apologize for that. I guess you missed the one recently where someone posted a picture of one guy holding a gun to another guy's head with the caption, "This is what we do to retards like countermoon when we lose patience with them."

I take death threats seriously. Why? 1) I worked in journalism, where death threats are common; 2) A relative of mine was murdered recently; 3) The internet is a magnet for creeps; 4) This year is a magnet for creeps. 5) I have Italian ancestry.

You think I am the problem here? No wonder our country is lost.
 

Scout9

Senior Member
Feb 13, 2021
1,706
2,114
113
This still bothers you?

Be honest. You don't want America. You don't like America with its messy freedom and democracy. What you want is theocracy. What you want is Islam. Iran or Iraq. Islam makes no distinction between church and state. That's your kind of thing.

Have a nice day!:) I will say a little prayer against you!:)
No, CM, it does not bother me. I want the kind of government which Yahweh wants, and I provided Scripture passages to demonstrate that in order to know what that is, you must only have one source: His written Word. It is not any of those you identified. You are wrong. What bothers me is how you treat others and that is what my point is.

BTW, a little prayer against others is a curse. But you should know that as you studying the Bible. The little old church lady impersonation does not impress me.
 
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Scout9

Senior Member
Feb 13, 2021
1,706
2,114
113
"you have been hostile and seemingly intending to hurt others"

You want it to be nice. It isn't nice. I stood up to frauds and managed to get rid of some of them. I'm certainly not going to apologize for that. I guess you missed the one recently where someone posted a picture of one guy holding a gun to another guy's head with the caption, "This is what we do to retards like countermoon when we lose patience with them."

I take death threats seriously. Why? 1) I worked in journalism, where death threats are common; 2) A relative of mine was murdered recently; 3) The internet is a magnet for creeps; 4) This year is a magnet for creeps. 5) I have Italian ancestry.

You think I am the problem here? No wonder our country is lost.
I did not see that post; that is a threat, I agree, and I am sorry.

I suspect that you think your posts do not impact others, but as that post revealed, they do. That you can judge what I want, without knowing from where I came is equally a problem. You provide 5 points to help me understand from where you come (your history); but ask nothing about from where everyone else's vulnerabilities derive. My response to that is I am sorry for your losses, and I recognize that hurting people hurt other people. It also seems that you are the only person here whom is entitled to vomit out their hurt on others. In my observation, You can dish it out, but not take it. And then you respond angrily/hostilely when someone calls you out.

Of course, this is all via the keyboard, which is not the best medium to resolve any conflicts. People tend to project their emotional reactions to any given post onto the one writing the post.

Yes, I agree, this a year for creeps and it is going to get creepier.

Your responses to my posts are to deflect and point out how others treat you; to by-pass, to expect your point to be the only valid point; yet totally ignore how you have treated others.

THAT is what bothers me, CM. We all know it is not nice; but it seems to me that you are part of that "not nice cohort". What you say about me is irrelevant to me; and I am not offended, but I thought that I could use that as a start for "corrective behavior." I guess I was wrong. I can admit when I am wrong. Can you?
 
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countermoon

Senior Member
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You're not reading my posts very carefully. You comment on tone of voice and you interpret. I discourage people from reading between the lines. The meaning is in the black letters, not the white space. If you want to understand me, read my posts. Over and over, slowly. There's nothing frivolous, impulsive, or arbitrary in them (for the most part...). Along these lines, I discourage you from playing amateur psychologist. I know a little about that field, and I resist the impulse to judge people through that lens. You think I'm judgmental, but I have already addressed that accusation. The problem is, people don't like when I'm right. They have little experience with debate, with internet forums, and maybe reflection and changing their minds. It's always a jolt when someone kills your sacred cows. I'm not meek.

Divide and conquer has been a successful tactic for a long time. The Dummycrats love it. People come to this forum trying to use that tactic, and I have stopped many of them. I'm naturally suspicious when I see cheerleading for God, because religion is a divisive subject that is separate from politics. I don't have a problem with religion. I have a problem with certain uses of religion. I dislike frivolous views. I dislike improper uses of religion. I dislike the blurring of public and private.

You may be thinking, "You are too harsh on people who don't know what you know." Maybe. But by a certain age, we are all responsible for the views we hold. And if opinions are going to be entered in an internet forum, I consider them fair game, regardless of whose feelings get hurt. My primary interest is digging until I hit the truth. Beware my shovel. I swing it pretty hard. I remind you of Mark Twain's comment that untested virtue is weak as water. What good is an opinion that cannot withstand scrutiny?

It certainly is possible for a religious person to come to this forum without talking about religion at all. There are many other topics. But I suspect more is going on. A desire for accountability. A desire for better behavior, more moral behavior. A desire for answers, esp. answers about evil. A desire for peace. A desire to avoid suffering and death. I have tried to address some of these subjects without resorting to religion.

My last point: Don't look at the world through a veil, a template, a list of ideas. That's what ideologues do. Use your own eyes and ears. Make up your own mind. Try not to be influenced by others. Clear your mind before examining any subject. Try to assume nothing. Take the world on its own terms. Don't try to remake it your image. It's not silly putty or clay. It's not yours. It has its own rules. It was here before you and it will be here after you are gone.
 
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Scout9

Senior Member
Feb 13, 2021
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You're not reading my posts very carefully. You comment on tone of voice and you interpret. I discourage people from reading between the lines. What you need to know is in the black letters, not the white space. If you want to understand me, read my posts. Ove and over, slowly. There's nothing frivolous, impulsive, or arbitrary in them (for the most part...). Along these lines, I discourage you from playing amateur psychologist. I know a little about that field, and I resist the impulse to judge people through that lens. You think I'm judgmental, but I have already addressed that accusation. The problem is, people don't like when I'm right. They have little experience with debate, with internet forums, and maybe reflection and changing their minds. It's always a jolt when someone kills your sacred cows. I'm not meek.

Divide and conquer has been a successful tactic for a long time. The Dummycrats love it. People come to this forum trying to use that tactic, and I have stopped many of them. I'm naturally suspicious when I see cheerleading for God, because religion is a divisive subject that is separate from politics. I don't have a problem with religion. I have a problem with certain uses of religion. I dislike frivolous views. I dislike improper uses of religion. I dislike the blurring of public and private.

You may be thinking, "You are too harsh on people who don't know what you know." Maybe. But by a certain age, we are all responsible for the views we hold. And if opinions are going to be entered in an internet forum, I consider them fair game, regardless of whose feelings get hurt. My primary interest is digging until I hit the truth. Beware my shovel. I swing it pretty hard. I remind you of Mark Twain's comment that untested virtue is weak as water. What good is an opinion that cannot withstand scrutiny?

It certainly is possible for a religious person to come to this forum without talking about religion at all. There are many other topics. But I suspect more is going on. A desire for accountability. A desire for better behavior, more moral behavior. A desire for answers, esp. answers about evil. A desire for peace. A desire to avoid suffering and death. I have tried to address some of these subjects without resorting to religion.

My last point: Don't look at the world through a veil, a template, a list of ideas. That's what ideologues do. Use your own eyes and ears. Make up your own mind. Try not to be influenced by others. Clear you mind before examining any subject. Try to assume nothing. Take the world on its own terms. Don't try to remake it your image. It's not silly putty or clay. It's not yours. It has its own rules. It was here before you and it will be here after you are gone.
I have to leave for work now, so do not expect an answer any time yet today. I will take the time and thoroughly digest what you wrote, but not on this short amount of time.

BTW: I hardly call over 2.5 decades as a professional, licensed mental health provider an amateur psychologist. I do not know what your profession is now (was journalism), but at the minimum, I would respect the knowledge of the chosen field you had acquired over the years. As I wrote you before, I work hard not to make assumptions. But when I see facts, not just opinions, I use that to make my responses.

Let me finish this post by saying, I do appreciate the ongoing dialogue in a respectful manner. Thank you.
 
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Scout9

Senior Member
Feb 13, 2021
1,706
2,114
113
You're not reading my posts very carefully. You comment on tone of voice and you interpret. I discourage people from reading between the lines. The meaning is in the black letters, not the white space. If you want to understand me, read my posts. Over and over, slowly. There's nothing frivolous, impulsive, or arbitrary in them (for the most part...). Along these lines, I discourage you from playing amateur psychologist. I know a little about that field, and I resist the impulse to judge people through that lens. You think I'm judgmental, but I have already addressed that accusation. The problem is, people don't like when I'm right. They have little experience with debate, with internet forums, and maybe reflection and changing their minds. It's always a jolt when someone kills your sacred cows. I'm not meek.
Hey, CM, so after reading this over and slowly: here are some of my responses. This first paragraph, overall is a pretty good generalization of how to interpret the written word. Believe it or not I took critical thinking classes, speech and debate classes, and philosophy in College. Of course that was eons ago. However, I also do NOT read between the lines. I read the words and then put it into the patterns of previous written words, and I typically take them literally.
I don't guess as to their meaning and if it is unclear, I seek clarity. That's what I do so that I do not make assumptions.

An example of this would be: Post #13 "Have a nice day :)" and "I will say a prayer against you. :)" The black words in first sentence are taken literally and the smiley face is congruent with that message. The second sentence, the black words are also taken literally, a curse against me. And the smiley face is incongruent with the meaning of the words. At this point, I can interpret you were either truthful; have a nice day and meant it; but then the second sentence; well how does one interpret that without making an assumption? You either meant it as a joke; or sarcastic; or literally - you will curse me and smile about it; or you find the whole thing funny, which then makes your first statement suspicious. I truly do not play games, nor do I have time to play games, and that is not my agenda. My first instinct is to analyze, not emotionalize.

However, since I have seen you write this before, and I placed in the context of that message; and I am reading it again, placing it in the context of the message to me; I am reading the words, not the white space or smiley face. The first time it was in an abrasive and critical message to a Christian; the second time in a message to me, a Christian. I look for patterns, and three times makes a pattern. Incongruency between words and icons have a meaning and I do not assign any emotion to your words, just pointing out that your statement is a curse, and the smiley face is irrelevant. This is in line with my profession; observing incongruencies; and things I observe and point out to people in real life. If you meant it as a joke; then that means, I would have to make an assumption, wouldn't it? I read in black, not white or smiley faces when it is incongruent.

I don't know what you mean by "killing my sacred cow". What I do know, is that reflection and changing of someone's mind is often a good thing, especially if they take time to reflect. You see when things aren't clear, then that means I have to spend more time analyzing and providing the benefit of the doubt; or allowing for grace, thinking the best about someone; which I have written to you before, and actually others, which I know you've read. I am quite tolerable of miscommunications/misunderstandings. Which is why I am taking so much time trying to sort even this post out.

It may seem to you that I don't read your posts carefully, but I generally read all posts carefully and often sleep on them so I have a clear head and do not react from my emotions. I am quite good about that. Having written that, I have examples of why I wrote to you in the manner in which I did, and I expect you to provide examples of why you have written the things you have to me. That is; if you also want to understand me. It is clear based on your comments, that you really don't. Especially when you have to ask me, "What's my agenda."

It is late, I've had a long day and I am going to sign off this for now. I will respond to the rest as I have time, but tomorrow and Saturday are already full days. I just wanted to get a jump start about what you wrote.
 
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Scout9

Senior Member
Feb 13, 2021
1,706
2,114
113
Be honest. You don't want America. You don't like America with its messy freedom and democracy. What you want is theocracy. What you want is Islam. Iran or Iraq. Islam makes no distinction between church and state. That's your kind of thing.
Be honest; I am very honest, direct, and write exactly what I mean. I make the occasional mistake, and acknowledge it. Perhaps you and I have different interpretations of America: it is a republic, not a democracy (as someone so kindly reminded me not too long ago.) And I am all for freedom, as long as responsibility and a contributing citizen is part of the equation. And I should add a "law abiding citizen with morality".

"Theocracy: government by divine guidance or by officials who regarded as divinely guided. In many theocracies, government leaders are members of the clergy, and the state's legal system is based on religious law. Theocratic rule was typical of early civilizations."

Far be it for me to want a member of the clergy to be head of any political system. Far be it for me to want officials as divinely guided. There are many gods and many believe they are divine appointments and guided by the god of their choice. I believe that was the reference to the Islam, Iran, or Iraq. statement you wrote. Theocracy does not mean the same thing as the God of the Bible.

If you mean do I want the original Constitution as it was written based on Biblical principles such as what our founding fathers used for a template for our government? Then yes. But do not put words in my mouth; my comments were directly related to desiring our government to be exactly as Yahweh intended. And the only way to know what Yahweh intended is to read His exact, black written words with white space.

As you can read, my mind is still working...........
 

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