Joe Allen: Is AI a Portal to Hell?

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ZenRoman

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2021
4,280
809
113
First I'd like to thank you for the kind wish that I live to walk in the park at age 100.
However, unless there are meaningful advances in medicine or I am uploaded...I do not want to live to 100.
As things now stand:
"Old age isn't a battle; old age is a massacre."
Philip Roth
While my personal list of time's ruthless war damage to my body is extensive, it pales in comparison to many who live in my Community.
I'm in Arizona (hot but dry...except now in Monsoon season). Came here 17 years ago from New York, best move I ever made; New York is a S h i t Hole, getting shittier every day.
I live in an Active Retirement Community of just under 10,000 homes.
When we first moved here there was the occasional death...to be expected.
Fast forward 17 years, when my wife comes home from billiards or swimming, reporting to me (I refuse to mingle with these nasty, crazy, alcoholic old fuckers) on the latest body count.
Joe has stage 4 pancreatic cancer
A man walked into the Auditorium with a gun taped to his head, he pulled the trigger.
Barbara is on chemo for breast cancer (after double mastectomy).
I go out for a walk and see Ron the tall athletic tennis player laying on his garage floor in the throes of a massive stroke.
On and on and on....The Grim Reaper does his shopping here, and like at Costco, he leaves with more than he came for.
I hear a big diesel engine and turn to the wife saying, "The meat wagon is coming for our neighbor."
I'm up every half hour peeing, the stenosis in my neck can make me a quadriplegic at any time (they say they can't operate, but that's another story), sleep apnea, removed thyroid because they "thought" it was cancer - it wasn't: they said they spared the parathyroids - they didn't. The herniation in lower back doesn't allow me to sit, stand or lie in one position for very long, both knees are bone on bone (what you get when you jump out of perfectly good airplanes at the age of 18 screaming Airborne!!!)
Old Age, unless you are the one in a million genetically gifted and luckily uninjured, is:
devastation
decay
decrepitude....on and on...
The absolute worst thing about old age is that you become invisible and irrelevant.
I live the reality, I like my reality straight up and unsweetened. Anything science can do to get me out of this rotting carcass would be embraced by me; sign me up.
Oh...then I won't go to Heaven?
While I will vigorously defend your right to believe and practice your religion, with one exception which you can probably guess, and you do not force upon me, I ask that you respect my right to not believe in what for me is a mythical being.
I've been in and part of:
Jewish Temples
Catholic Churches
Taoist Temples
Buddhist Temples
Born Again Church
Jehovah's Witness
In other words, I tried mightily to find "God". All I found were god$.
As far as "willingly serve AI"; why not? We willingly serve horrible people all the time; we do horrific things to other people at their behest. Hmm...AI or Mao or American Liberals? I'll go with AI.
I respect and honor Stephen K. Bannon's work in the Political Arena; however, his and Joe Allen's vehement opposition to our road to the future is myopic and biased.
 

ZenRoman

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2021
4,280
809
113

The Magick of New York​


 

LoyalsWar

Member
Feb 28, 2022
61
24
8

The Magick of New York​


I grew up in Brooklyn, NY many years ago.
IMHO, the Magic is gone from NY, replaced by Liberal Lunacy and rampant crime.
Not even a place to visit any longer.
 

Confusedpatriot

Senior Member
Sep 12, 2021
1,634
587
113
First I'd like to thank you for the kind wish that I live to walk in the park at age 100.
However, unless there are meaningful advances in medicine or I am uploaded...I do not want to live to 100.
As things now stand:
"Old age isn't a battle; old age is a massacre."
Philip Roth
While my personal list of time's ruthless war damage to my body is extensive, it pales in comparison to many who live in my Community.
I'm in Arizona (hot but dry...except now in Monsoon season). Came here 17 years ago from New York, best move I ever made; New York is a S h i t Hole, getting shittier every day.
I live in an Active Retirement Community of just under 10,000 homes.
When we first moved here there was the occasional death...to be expected.
Fast forward 17 years, when my wife comes home from billiards or swimming, reporting to me (I refuse to mingle with these nasty, crazy, alcoholic old fuckers) on the latest body count.
Joe has stage 4 pancreatic cancer
A man walked into the Auditorium with a gun taped to his head, he pulled the trigger.
Barbara is on chemo for breast cancer (after double mastectomy).
I go out for a walk and see Ron the tall athletic tennis player laying on his garage floor in the throes of a massive stroke.
On and on and on....The Grim Reaper does his shopping here, and like at Costco, he leaves with more than he came for.
I hear a big diesel engine and turn to the wife saying, "The meat wagon is coming for our neighbor."
I'm up every half hour peeing, the stenosis in my neck can make me a quadriplegic at any time (they say they can't operate, but that's another story), sleep apnea, removed thyroid because they "thought" it was cancer - it wasn't: they said they spared the parathyroids - they didn't. The herniation in lower back doesn't allow me to sit, stand or lie in one position for very long, both knees are bone on bone (what you get when you jump out of perfectly good airplanes at the age of 18 screaming Airborne!!!)
Old Age, unless you are the one in a million genetically gifted and luckily uninjured, is:
devastation
decay
decrepitude....on and on...
The absolute worst thing about old age is that you become invisible and irrelevant.
I live the reality, I like my reality straight up and unsweetened. Anything science can do to get me out of this rotting carcass would be embraced by me; sign me up.
Oh...then I won't go to Heaven?
While I will vigorously defend your right to believe and practice your religion, with one exception which you can probably guess, and you do not force upon me, I ask that you respect my right to not believe in what for me is a mythical being.
I've been in and part of:
Jewish Temples
Catholic Churches
Taoist Temples
Buddhist Temples
Born Again Church
Jehovah's Witness
In other words, I tried mightily to find "God". All I found were god$.
As far as "willingly serve AI"; why not? We willingly serve horrible people all the time; we do horrific things to other people at their behest. Hmm...AI or Mao or American Liberals? I'll go with AI.
I respect and honor Stephen K. Bannon's work in the Political Arena; however, his and Joe Allen's vehement opposition to our road to the future is myopic and biased.

Always glad to meet a fellow paratrooper. :) I went through Airborne School and then Ranger School right after I was commissioned.

Naturally, my immediate thought upon reading your description above is to try to offer solutions. But, don't think that I don't hear and feel your pain. You are visible and you are still relevant.


Maybe it's time to jump out of the airplane again? Can you leave that Active Retirement Community and go live somewhere slightly more life affirming?

Have you considered that there are people out there who are in a worse position than you? There are children being abused, going to bed hungry . . . . there are abused animals . . . . there are the alcoholic and drug addicted,, the ill laying in hospice or VA wards . . . . . perhaps you could be of some service to those more unfortunate than you? Even teaching an adult to read would change a life.

Perhaps you could reach out to those who have lost someone in your community and take them for a drive, or read to them, or take them fiching?

Maybe focusing on others will help give you at least momentary relief.

You mentioned many attempts to find 'god." Have you considered studying your "self?" Have you considered meditation? For example, here are two men I've followed for many years. I first read Krishnamurti at the Fort Huachuca library when I was very young and trying to find answers. There aren't exactly "religious" men but they share commonalities with some religions . . . .


The nature of hurt | J. Krishnamurti


How to Stop Overthinking? | Sadhguru Answers



You do matter, you can be as visible and relevant as you choose to be. I believe that in serving others, you will lose yourself and find happiness. The world needs intelligent and compassionate people like you more than ever.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZenRoman

LoyalsWar

Member
Feb 28, 2022
61
24
8
Thank you so much for your reply,
(101st Airborne from 1963-1966)
So refreshing to have met someone who is capable of thinking rationally in addition to apparently being a compassionate person.
Desert Strike in 1694 saw me standing in the Mojave Desert looking at what seemed like Heaven to me. I never felt as if I belonged in New York with legions of people and frigid winters. Here were open skies, a horizon that stretched into the distance, heat heat heat....heaven. This is where I belong.
It would take many more years before Fate allowed my dream to....come partially true.
Found a acre of land in Wittman, AZ. Pretty much real desert. My dream.
Flew the wife (2nd) out the view the property.
She gets out of the car and screams, "SNAKESSNAKESSNAKES!!!!!
Dream over, we move further east to this Active (dying) Retirement Community.
First few years I go along with the Social Butterfly Wife; this club, that group, get togethers, etc.
Inevitably the Knives Come Out; the gossip, this group against that group.
My Ball and Chain loves it here so this is where I'll be planted, next to a Saguaro Cactus.
I have figured myself out:
  • Atheist (with qualifications) "All thinking men are atheists" - Ernest Hemingway
  • Nihilist "Ecclesiastes 1:14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind"
  • Misanthrope “Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the death of others. We are burial places.”Leonardo da Vinci
The wonderful thing about old age is, for me at least, is that I don't give a F U C K, I'm going to say what's on my mind.
I'd prefer a discussion, a debate, a conversation where you show me where and how I'm wrong...which I'd admit to.
Of course I expect you would do the same.
In reality it is almost impossible to find that give and take between intelligent, fair and unbiased people.
I have personally experienced the worst of human beings with precious little to counter balance that.
Now I am very happy to read subjects I have always been interested in like Philosophy (Steven Hawking said philosophy is dead), watch Science videos, fall asleep in the LazyBoy watching Andrei Tarkovsky films. Occasionally, I have a lucid enlightening conversation with the north wall of my office.
My circle of humans is small, very small: two grown daughters and one wife - that's it; don't want or need more...umm, you are kinda making me rethink that I must admit....
I practiced Tai Chi Chuan and Qigong for years.
I truly hope this does not offend you as you seem to put stock in Sadhguru, to have faith in his "wisdom".
The odor of snake oil is strong. PT Barnum in a Turban.
Take your own advice and figure it out for yourself, beware the YouTube Gurus.

Living in a Retirement Community I can’t help thinking often about Death.​

  • His good friends: Cancer, Stroke, and Dementia have vacation homes here.
  • This is the Grim Reaper's “Costco”, He leaves with more than he came for.
  • Sun City Grand “Land of the Dead”
  • Early morning “Dawn of the Dead”
  • I look out my window, it’s going to be a “Day of the Dead”
  • Afternoon walkers, “The Walking Dead”
  • As the sun sets, the sky darkens, a prelude to “Night of the Living Dead”
  • Here in Sun City Grand the Grim Reaper makes house calls, arriving with the Meat Wagons: Fire and Ambulance.
  • This is where the Grim Reaper has lots of friends in the Medical Field.
  • Grim Reaper asks the Doc, “Wadda ya got for me today?” Doctor Ramasawany Pinchuwallet (MD University of New Delhi) says, “I have two Big Ooops for you.” “Thanks Doc, I love them Big Ooops.” says The Grim Reaper.
  • Time for your colonoscopy? You get four months of unspeakable Hell after your intestine is perforated, mercifully ended by your death.
  • Have a cough? Great! We’ll take a lung.
  • Can’t pee? Great! We’ll take your prostate.
  • “Happy the man who dies before he prays for death.”​

Publilius Syrus​

 

ZenRoman

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2021
4,280
809
113
Always glad to meet a fellow paratrooper. :) I went through Airborne School and then Ranger School right after I was commissioned.

Naturally, my immediate thought upon reading your description above is to try to offer solutions. But, don't think that I don't hear and feel your pain. You are visible and you are still relevant.


Maybe it's time to jump out of the airplane again? Can you leave that Active Retirement Community and go live somewhere slightly more life affirming?

Have you considered that there are people out there who are in a worse position than you? There are children being abused, going to bed hungry . . . . there are abused animals . . . . there are the alcoholic and drug addicted,, the ill laying in hospice or VA wards . . . . . perhaps you could be of some service to those more unfortunate than you? Even teaching an adult to read would change a life.

Perhaps you could reach out to those who have lost someone in your community and take them for a drive, or read to them, or take them fiching?

Maybe focusing on others will help give you at least momentary relief.

You mentioned many attempts to find 'god." Have you considered studying your "self?" Have you considered meditation? For example, here are two men I've followed for many years. I first read Krishnamurti at the Fort Huachuca library when I was very young and trying to find answers. There aren't exactly "religious" men but they share commonalities with some religions . . . .


The nature of hurt | J. Krishnamurti


How to Stop Overthinking? | Sadhguru Answers



You do matter, you can be as visible and relevant as you choose to be. I believe that in serving others, you will lose yourself and find happiness. The world needs intelligent and compassionate people like you more than ever.
 

ZenRoman

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2021
4,280
809
113
Thank you so much for your reply,
(101st Airborne from 1963-1966)
So refreshing to have met someone who is capable of thinking rationally in addition to apparently being a compassionate person.
Desert Strike in 1694 saw me standing in the Mojave Desert looking at what seemed like Heaven to me. I never felt as if I belonged in New York with legions of people and frigid winters. Here were open skies, a horizon that stretched into the distance, heat heat heat....heaven. This is where I belong.
It would take many more years before Fate allowed my dream to....come partially true.
Found a acre of land in Wittman, AZ. Pretty much real desert. My dream.
Flew the wife (2nd) out the view the property.
She gets out of the car and screams, "SNAKESSNAKESSNAKES!!!!!
Dream over, we move further east to this Active (dying) Retirement Community.
First few years I go along with the Social Butterfly Wife; this club, that group, get togethers, etc.
Inevitably the Knives Come Out; the gossip, this group against that group.
My Ball and Chain loves it here so this is where I'll be planted, next to a Saguaro Cactus.
I have figured myself out:
  • Atheist (with qualifications) "All thinking men are atheists" - Ernest Hemingway
  • Nihilist "Ecclesiastes 1:14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind"
  • Misanthrope “Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the death of others. We are burial places.”Leonardo da Vinci
The wonderful thing about old age is, for me at least, is that I don't give a F U C K, I'm going to say what's on my mind.
I'd prefer a discussion, a debate, a conversation where you show me where and how I'm wrong...which I'd admit to.
Of course I expect you would do the same.
In reality it is almost impossible to find that give and take between intelligent, fair and unbiased people.
I have personally experienced the worst of human beings with precious little to counter balance that.
Now I am very happy to read subjects I have always been interested in like Philosophy (Steven Hawking said philosophy is dead), watch Science videos, fall asleep in the LazyBoy watching Andrei Tarkovsky films. Occasionally, I have a lucid enlightening conversation with the north wall of my office.
My circle of humans is small, very small: two grown daughters and one wife - that's it; don't want or need more...umm, you are kinda making me rethink that I must admit....CI practiced Tai Chi Chuan and Qigong for years.
I truly hope this does not offend you as you seem to put stock in Sadhguru, to have faith in his "wisdom".
The odor of snake oil is strong. PT Barnum in a Turban.
Take your own advice and figure it out for yourself, beware the YouTube Gurus.

Living in a Retirement Community I can’t help thinking often about Death.​

  • His good friends: Cancer, Stroke, and Dementia have vacation homes here.
  • This is the Grim Reaper's “Costco”, He leaves with more than he came for.
  • Sun City Grand “Land of the Dead”
  • Early morning “Dawn of the Dead”
  • I look out my window, it’s going to be a “Day of the Dead”
  • Afternoon walkers, “The Walking Dead”
  • As the sun sets, the sky darkens, a prelude to “Night of the Living Dead”
  • Here in Sun City Grand the Grim Reaper makes house calls, arriving with the Meat Wagons: Fire and Ambulance.
  • This is where the Grim Reaper has lots of friends in the Medical Field.
  • Grim Reaper asks the Doc, “Wadda ya got for me today?” Doctor Ramasawany Pinchuwallet (MD University of New Delhi) says, “I have two Big Ooops for you.” “Thanks Doc, I love them Big Ooops.” says The Grim Reaper.
  • Time for your colonoscopy? You get four months of unspeakable Hell after your intestine is perforated, mercifully ended by your death.
  • Have a cough? Great! We’ll take a lung.
  • Can’t pee? Great! We’ll take your prostate.
  • “Happy the man who dies before he prays for death.”​

Publilius Syrus​

WHILE STATIONED ON GOVERNORS ISLAND MET A NICE GIRL FROM BENSONHURST, BROOKLYN, LIFE WAS GOOD.

@I practiced Tai Chi Chuan and Qigong for years.--YOU STOPPED?
ANY NEI GONG, JI JIN JING?
ZHAN ZHUANG/YIQUAN IS EXCELLENT FOR THE OLDER PRACTITIONER.
MY FOCUS WITH THE INTERNAL CHANGED DRAMATICALLY WHEN I MET FONG HA.
 

LoyalsWar

Member
Feb 28, 2022
61
24
8
WHILE STATIONED ON GOVERNORS ISLAND MET A NICE GIRL FROM BENSONHURST, BROOKLYN, LIFE WAS GOOD.

@I practiced Tai Chi Chuan and Qigong for years.--YOU STOPPED?
ANY NEI GONG, JI JIN JING?
ZHAN ZHUANG/YIQUAN IS EXCELLENT FOR THE OLDER PRACTITIONER.
MY FOCUS WITH THE INTERNAL CHANGED DRAMATICALLY WHEN I MET FONG HA.
Bensonhurst is where I grew up: 58th St between 17th and 18th Aves.
In those days, it was working class Jewish and Italian. Today it is solid Hasidim.
Began Tai Chi in Chinatown, NYC at Cheng Man Ching's School.
Tai Chi farm in Upstate NY was a regular stop over.
Bone on bone knees from injuries prior to Tai Chi forced me to stop.
Jujitsu, Tae kwon do, powerlifting. Today, I'd be lucky to punch my way out of a wet paper bag.
Father Time is kicking my ass on a daily basis.
These days it's light dumbbells', bands, yoga mat, spin bike.
A great disillusionment with Qigong ended that for me.
How about you?
 

ZenRoman

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2021
4,280
809
113
Bensonhurst is where I grew up: 58th St between 17th and 18th Aves.
In those days, it was working class Jewish and Italian. Today it is solid Hasidim.
Began Tai Chi in Chinatown, NYC at Cheng Man Ching's School.
Tai Chi farm in Upstate NY was a regular stop over.
Bone on bone knees from injuries prior to Tai Chi forced me to stop.
Jujitsu, Tae kwon do, powerlifting. Today, I'd be lucky to punch my way out of a wet paper bag.
Father Time is kicking my ass on a daily basis.
These days it's light dumbbells', bands, yoga mat, spin bike.
A great disillusionment with Qigong ended that for me.
How about you?
WORKED AND LIVED IN NYC FOR 50 YEARS.
QUEENS, BROOKLYN AND MANHATTAN.
BENSONHURST WAS BAY 8TH AND 14TH
EVENTUALLY MARRIED SOMEONE FROM CANARSIE
CURRENT SIGNIFICANT OTHER IS FROM EAST NEW YORK
All of those old ethnic neighborhoods changed in NYC
they all moved to Long Island, New Jersey, Staten Island
you study with William Chen?
power lifted also.
Trained at the Chuang Yen Monastery and Temple of Enlightenment/Bronx
I train daily at 71 have realistic expectations.
 

LoyalsWar

Member
Feb 28, 2022
61
24
8
No, not William Chen.
Professor Chen Man Cheng.
Several videos, forms, push hands and sword are available on YouTube.
Here's one.
God, I went through them... they're all dead.
You still going strong, good for you.
I went from Brooklyn to the swamps of Staten Island which was considered a move up, retired in '84 and on to NJ.
17 years ago Arizona.
Like I said...my 17 year younger wife will be planting me here... and that's fine with me.
 

Confusedpatriot

Senior Member
Sep 12, 2021
1,634
587
113
Thank you so much for your reply,
(101st Airborne from 1963-1966)

Screaming Eagles. Cool.

My wife and I chose the mountains instead of the desert but otherwise, our paths are very similar.

I truly hope this does not offend you as you seem to put stock in Sadhguru, to have faith in his "wisdom".
The odor of snake oil is strong. PT Barnum in a Turban.
Take your own advice and figure it out for yourself, beware the YouTube Gurus.

No, of course no offense. My wife and I meditate together daily and we do watch Sadhguru. I find his insight into certain things invaluable but yeah, the whole "Indian mystic" thing has been overdone and abused. We take the bits and pieces we like and ignore the rest . . . . but he's not everyone's cup of tea.

My circle of humans is small, very small: two grown daughters and one wife - that's it; don't want or need more...umm, you are kinda making me rethink that I must admit....

Once again, same here. We do a lot of animal rescue and help out two-legged animals we hear about. It's nothing formal but we give a lot of money to individuals who work hard but have trouble making ends meet. I imagine that being in a retirement community might limit your ability to work with others since most people are financially well off. We live in a target-rich environment so it's easy for us to find folks in trouble. You might need to develop ties with a healthcare facility, nursing home, after-school program, etc.

I do some animal rescue things with my wife, but I like teaching people to read much more. During the school year, I also do after-school work with Juniors and Seniors who are trying to catch up and once in a while with someone doing AP/college level (but most of them don't need help). I meet them in the Public Library and I literally just sit there while they do homework or study. Sometimes I help but it's more about just being there. Many have never had that.

I got involved through a teacher we know at the high school. You could reach out to the school principal and offer to be a "Resource" for kids who need academic help.


Another small thought:

It's part of Buddhist wisdom that when your thoughts are distressing you or running endlessly (like when going to sleep) you can slow down your mind by remembering the kindnesses that you've done to others (humans or animals) during the day.

If the day doesn't have sufficient examples, then throughout the last several days or week.

Of course, you quickly become aware of how few examples of doing good there are. This motivates you to get out and help others.

It's a simple technique but it does work.

Kindness and Giving really are what being old (and financially secure) are all about. If your kids and grandkids are OK then there are a lot of needy strangers out there.

Cheers.
 

ZenRoman

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2021
4,280
809
113
No, not William Chen.
Professor Chen Man Cheng.
Several videos, forms, push hands and sword are available on YouTube.
Here's one.
God, I went through them... they're all dead.
You still going strong, good for you.
I went from Brooklyn to the swamps of Staten Island which was considered a move up, retired in '84 and on to NJ.
17 years ago Arizona.
Like I said...my 17 year younger wife will be planting me here... and that's fine with me.
 

LoyalsWar

Member
Feb 28, 2022
61
24
8
Screaming Eagles. Cool.

My wife and I chose the mountains instead of the desert but otherwise, our paths are very similar.



No, of course no offense. My wife and I meditate together daily and we do watch Sadhguru. I find his insight into certain things invaluable but yeah, the whole "Indian mystic" thing has been overdone and abused. We take the bits and pieces we like and ignore the rest . . . . but he's not everyone's cup of tea.



Once again, same here. We do a lot of animal rescue and help out two-legged animals we hear about. It's nothing formal but we give a lot of money to individuals who work hard but have trouble making ends meet. I imagine that being in a retirement community might limit your ability to work with others since most people are financially well off. We live in a target-rich environment so it's easy for us to find folks in trouble. You might need to develop ties with a healthcare facility, nursing home, after-school program, etc.

I do some animal rescue things with my wife, but I like teaching people to read much more. During the school year, I also do after-school work with Juniors and Seniors who are trying to catch up and once in a while with someone doing AP/college level (but most of them don't need help). I meet them in the Public Library and I literally just sit there while they do homework or study. Sometimes I help but it's more about just being there. Many have never had that.

I got involved through a teacher we know at the high school. You could reach out to the school principal and offer to be a "Resource" for kids who need academic help.


Another small thought:

It's part of Buddhist wisdom that when your thoughts are distressing you or running endlessly (like when going to sleep) you can slow down your mind by remembering the kindnesses that you've done to others (humans or animals) during the day.

If the day doesn't have sufficient examples, then throughout the last several days or week.

Of course, you quickly become aware of how few examples of doing good there are. This motivates you to get out and help others.

It's a simple technique but it does work.

Kindness and Giving really are what being old (and financially secure) are all about. If your kids and grandkids are OK then there are a lot of needy strangers out there.

Cheers.
At dentist, wife getting implant...$3k, charity begins at home.
My finances are declining as rapidly as Bidens cognitive abilities.
Knowledgeable voices are predicting a summer of shortages, rolling blackouts and stagflation.
My Mother in law was a devout Buddhist.
I am aquatinted with "monkey" mind as with the 3am ghosts from my past.
Wife, daughters...if I need more I'll get a dog.
Let me speak truthfully and frankly... I do not donate organs unless I know who that organ is going to. They would have to be worthy they would have to prove that they are not going to be a serial killer or rapist.
Helping strangers sorry until you've spent time in the foxhole with me you're on your own.
Wait, came back to edit that. I sound like a really selfish son of a bitch...l am am not. But I am not altruistic. Too many times "no good deed goes unpunished" has left an indelible mark on me.
I am not a Buddhist, I am a Realist, so for me a person must be worthy, and I do expect reciprocity.
In any case avoiding the most deadly organism on the planet (humans) is exactly what I desire.
You and a new neighbor may be exceptions...diamonds in the rough, needles in the haystack... anomalies.
 
Last edited:

NvEric

Senior Member
Feb 7, 2021
3,043
2,404
113
Nevada, near Carson City
SUPER INTELLIGENT MORAL THINKING
To the extent that ethics is a cognitive pursuit, a super intelligence could do it better than human thinkers. This means that questions about ethics, in so far as they have correct answers that can be arrived at by reasoning and weighting up of evidence, could be more accurately answered by a super intelligence than by humans.
It seems that the best way to ensure that a super intelligence will have a beneficial impact on the world is to endow it with philanthropic values. Its top goal should be friendliness.
For an old fart, you seem to have your marbles intact.

As with people, input matters as does the ability to process the input. How the processing goes - to what next stage or end matters. People are what they have become over time. A vindictive nature might always remain so or it may have the cognitive ability to see its fault and self-correct after the fault occurs. Another may "catch" itself before hand and choose a different path.

A machine is a machine no matter how it's engineered and remains just a machine. Even constructing a machine capable of creating another machine is still a machine - something without life or morals or cognate with people. And, if such machines where to be thought of as having the traits of people, they would still not be people nor could they ever be no matter the amount of its capabilities. A complex construction, something which mimics a person to where one could enjoy being around it would still be an empty of life machine.

However far the advancement in technology goes does not bother me. It's those who try to predict a future with a machine being more than machine is where a fault in thinking occurs. And, that fault grows with time and distance from people being human in the most basic sense - without a center or recognizing their obligations to others. The divorce from the path - the idealistic notions which produced the USA - continues. While human nature may not be changeable, the explosion in population has given the World more of those who are different from the majority. There are more people predisposed to the betterment of human nature. These are not better people, but rather they advance human nature forward to a more mutual purpose while retaining the individual as independent too.
 

LoyalsWar

Member
Feb 28, 2022
61
24
8
For an old fart, you seem to have your marbles intact.

As with people, input matters as does the ability to process the input. How the processing goes - to what next stage or end matters. People are what they have become over time. A vindictive nature might always remain so or it may have the cognitive ability to see its fault and self-correct after the fault occurs. Another may "catch" itself before hand and choose a different path.

A machine is a machine no matter how it's engineered and remains just a machine. Even constructing a machine capable of creating another machine is still a machine - something without life or morals or cognate with people. And, if such machines where to be thought of as having the traits of people, they would still not be people nor could they ever be no matter the amount of its capabilities. A complex construction, something which mimics a person to where one could enjoy being around it would still be an empty of life machine.

However far the advancement in technology goes does not bother me. It's those who try to predict a future with a machine being more than machine is where a fault in thinking occurs. And, that fault grows with time and distance from people being human in the most basic sense - without a center or recognizing their obligations to others. The divorce from the path - the idealistic notions which produced the USA - continues. While human nature may not be changeable, the explosion in population has given the World more of those who are different from the majority. There are more people predisposed to the betterment of human nature. These are not better people, but rather they advance human nature forward to a more mutual purpose while retaining the individual as independent too.
"...you seem to have your marbles intact."
Don't judge a book by it's cover....I'll be the first to admit my marbles were lost a long time ago. As with all homo saps, crazy is just a matter of kind and degree, and whether or not you will own it or continue down the Denial River. Go look in the mirror and attempt to have an honest conversation with that guy. In no time you will be calling each other "crazyyyyyy".
The World is NOT careening towards this great awakening of compassion and betterment for the masses. The Future is here, now, today and it's a future where humans play less and less of a role. Humans think they are unique individuals, and at the mirco level they are: finger prints, etc. However on the Macro level we are all very predictable sheep. Ask a Statistician, ask an Actuary who could, within months if not weeks predict when, where and how you will die. When Zeitgeist blows around the Globe most of the weeds bend in that direction. The tall individual weeds are cut down.
Your Utopian message appears to have not reached the CCP, Russia, North Korea and others...oh, don't forget Klaus Schwab who in the words of Stephen K. Bannon "will make a Russian serf out of you". The folks with the Nuclear tipped missiles will not hesitate to roll right over idealists and those predisposed to betterment.
The folks you mention, those on a path to advance human nature, will only tolerate their myopic vision of what your future should look like; don't believe me? Try criticizing them for an eye opener.
People are like cats, they need to be herded for their own good, or they'll be shitting all over the place; and guess what, the Cat Herder is here - Artificial Intelligence.

Here's where I believe this debate...and everything simply is out of our hands.
At this advanced stage of my life, seeing the past in a different perspective than an eight year old, I have come to believe, (yes I said "believe", since I do not have proof) that at the moment of the Singularity the past, present and future were written out. I could go into more detail as to my personal take on this but it would require pages and pages ending in simply my personal opinion based on life experience, some reading and a cursory knowledge of science.
I think Shakespeare got it right: “All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts…"
But wait...in this amazing time we live where Science has peeked in to the very Creation of this Universe we are now getting glimpses of Reality.
There is a man who says, according to, not his opinion, but to scientific experiments, that the Present is influenced by the Future.
On the YouTube Channel "Closer to Truth" you can watch several interviews with him discussing that and other mind blowing topics.
He is not a crackpot:
Jeff Tollaksen is a Professor of Physics and Director of the Center for Excellence in Quantum Studies at Chapman University. He received his BA in physics from MIT. He later attended Boston University where he earned a MA and PhD in theoretical physics.
https://www.youtube.com/c/CloserToTruthTV/search?query=jeff tollaksen
 

LoyalsWar

Member
Feb 28, 2022
61
24
8
For an old fart, you seem to have your marbles intact.

As with people, input matters as does the ability to process the input. How the processing goes - to what next stage or end matters. People are what they have become over time. A vindictive nature might always remain so or it may have the cognitive ability to see its fault and self-correct after the fault occurs. Another may "catch" itself before hand and choose a different path.

A machine is a machine no matter how it's engineered and remains just a machine. Even constructing a machine capable of creating another machine is still a machine - something without life or morals or cognate with people. And, if such machines where to be thought of as having the traits of people, they would still not be people nor could they ever be no matter the amount of its capabilities. A complex construction, something which mimics a person to where one could enjoy being around it would still be an empty of life machine.

However far the advancement in technology goes does not bother me. It's those who try to predict a future with a machine being more than machine is where a fault in thinking occurs. And, that fault grows with time and distance from people being human in the most basic sense - without a center or recognizing their obligations to others. The divorce from the path - the idealistic notions which produced the USA - continues. While human nature may not be changeable, the explosion in population has given the World more of those who are different from the majority. There are more people predisposed to the betterment of human nature. These are not better people, but rather they advance human nature forward to a more mutual purpose while retaining the individual as independent too.
NvEric, please as specifically as possible answer the following:
1. "A machine is a machine..."
a) Is the machine you are referring to one of inorganic chemistry?
2. Is a machine made of meat and organic chemistry a machine if needs inorganic elements to "live", iron, zinc, etc?
3. Define "Life"
a) must life be organic
b) can there be forms of life other than that which has arisen on this planet over the course of 3.7 billion years
4. Exactly how do you know that a "machine" will be devoid of "morals" or "cognate"?
5. Why do you think a machine must mimic people and not be a very different life form unique unto themselves?
6. When your "better" world is realized and a few folks stand up and say they're not onboard with your vision, How will you deal with them?
a) put a bullet in their heads
b) send them to reeducation camps
Personally, I'd go with the reeducation camps where I could harvest their organs and make a few bucks...why let good organs go to waste.
 

Confusedpatriot

Senior Member
Sep 12, 2021
1,634
587
113
For an old fart, you seem to have your marbles intact.

As with people, input matters as does the ability to process the input. How the processing goes - to what next stage or end matters. People are what they have become over time. A vindictive nature might always remain so or it may have the cognitive ability to see its fault and self-correct after the fault occurs. Another may "catch" itself before hand and choose a different path.

A machine is a machine no matter how it's engineered and remains just a machine. Even constructing a machine capable of creating another machine is still a machine - something without life or morals or cognate with people. And, if such machines where to be thought of as having the traits of people, they would still not be people nor could they ever be no matter the amount of its capabilities. A complex construction, something which mimics a person to where one could enjoy being around it would still be an empty of life machine.

However far the advancement in technology goes does not bother me. It's those who try to predict a future with a machine being more than machine is where a fault in thinking occurs. And, that fault grows with time and distance from people being human in the most basic sense - without a center or recognizing their obligations to others. The divorce from the path - the idealistic notions which produced the USA - continues. While human nature may not be changeable, the explosion in population has given the World more of those who are different from the majority. There are more people predisposed to the betterment of human nature. These are not better people, but rather they advance human nature forward to a more mutual purpose while retaining the individual as independent too.

This is an absolutely brilliant post. LoyalsWar + NVEric . . . . . I feel like I'm a First Grader conversing with two PhDs in the science of AI . . . . . .

It's those who try to predict a future with a machine being more than machine is where a fault in thinking occurs. And, that fault grows with time and distance from people being human in the most basic sense - without a center or recognizing their obligations to others. The divorce from the path - the idealistic notions which produced the USA - continues.

Yes, this is the point. AI has become another diversion. It's 2022's Covid and George Floyd (along with Ukraine).



But there is another aspect to AI which bears consideration and that is its ability to make SUPER RATIONAL decisions and execute them on behalf of humanity. In the past, that's been the province of political dogma. The Mongols' view of power envisioned a Mongol world. Same with the Muslims. Other political dogmas called not just for conquering and subjugating but for extinction and genocide. Hitler and his ideas of lebensraum is one example.

As human populations grow, it seems logical to expect that Super AI will decide that some humans have to die so others may expand and thrive.

What's new is that Super AI could control the robots, drones, mini-drones and missiles to make it happen. No human need be involved in the cleansing of, let's say, the islands of Hispaniola or Puerto Rico or for that matter Southern California.

We could see war changing from human versus human conflict to AI versus AI conflict where war is waged on behalf of humans without human control.

You might never know, for example, that a cloud of mini-drones just wiped out a small town in Mexico because Super AI decided that the land would be better used to grow corn for you in the United States.

‘A collective organism, sharing one distributed brain’: Pentagon successfully tests swarm of intelligent micro-drones
 

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